Peak Pursuits: Katie's Journey from Fine Art to Himalayan Adventure Photography

In this captivating episode of Your Photography Podcast, we delve into Katie's inspiring journey from her early aspirations in fine art to her flourishing career as a freelance outdoor sports photographer. Join us as we unravel the story behind Katie's discovery of her true passion for ski and action sports photography, tracing her steps through invaluable experiences with renowned companies like Teton Gravity Research. Tune in to learn how Katie's determination and dedication led her to achieve her wildest dreams, including the exhilarating opportunity to capture the thrill of mountain biking amidst the majestic peaks of the Himalayas. Prepare to be inspired by Katie's extraordinary path and discover the boundless possibilities within the world of outdoor photography.


Check out Katie's work
Website
https://katielozancich.com/
Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/_katielo/



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Transcript

Welcome to your photography podcast, where we immerse ourselves in the diverse world of creative expression with photography and sometimes videography, unveiling insights from portraits and weddings to the heart of what I truly cherish, adventure, sports, photography, and the vibrant tapestry of an active lifestyle. Whether you've been following my adventures or you're new to f stops and shutter speeds, this podcast is your gateway to a treasure trove of knowledge and insights. Together, we'll explore the art of working with clients, brands, capturing the essence of families, athletes, models and products.

This isn't just about capturing moments, it's a guide to Mashable storytelling through your lens. Join us as we explore the intricate facets of photography as a business, uncovering the invaluable tips and tricks of the trade. Learn from our shared experiences, the highs, the lows, the transformative moments that have shaped our path.

This podcast isn't just for photographers, it's a sanctuary for those hungry to deepen their understanding of photography and videography. Whether you're a seasoned pro or you're just starting to find your creative expedition, get ready for a captivating exploration of the art, the business, the spirit of photography. Creativity can be your vehicle and your passport to endless possibilities.

Let's embark on this adventure together. Be sure to subscribe and follow for every episode. Hey, thanks for joining your photography podcast.

If you've been listening to the last few episodes, you've heard me talk about magic mind, I'm still super stoked about it. This stuff is amazing. It has beneficial ingredients like lion's Mane, turmeric, ashwagandha.

With that said, if you missed last month's offer for the next ten days, you can get 56% off your subscription by going to www.magicmind.com adamp and use my code Adamp 20 I am super excited for Katie Lowe, a sacramento native whose journey into the outdoor world started with a Warren Miller movie in college. Inspired by the magic of ski movies, she dropped out, moved to Truckee, and turned her dream into a full time career as a freelance artist, writer and photographer.

Passionate about meaningful storytelling, she collaborates with brands, focusing on representation, inclusion, conversation, and climate change activism. Join us as we dive into Katie's adventure field life, exploring the stories behind her lens and the intersection of art, advocacy and the great outdoors. Welcome Katie.

Thank you, Adam. We're excited to be here. Yeah.

So your last name isn't it's. And your website even says not. Good luck if you can say it.

But good on you. Kind of. Yeah.

How do you pronounce your last name, it's lozantic, I guess. I think. Yeah, I would have messed that up so bad.

I always knew when it was my turn to be called in class because I could see the teacher get to the l's and then take a deep breath, and I'd be like, no, I'm here. You don't have to try. Yeah.

Low is a good alternative for most people. That's funny. I mean, I kind of shared a little bit of how that journey started in photography, but that was just a brief summary.

So tell us more about it. Yeah. My journey with photography started initially in high school.

I took a photography class and absolutely loved it, but I didn't really see it as, like, a career that I wanted to do until college. I actually was more of an artist growing up, like, just fine art, painting, drawing, and was, like, a little kid who carried a sketchbook with me everywhere I went. So I always had a dream of going to fine art school and being a painter, and it was just kind of hard to bring that dream to life growing up in a really small town outside of Sacramento and not knowing many fine artists.

And that path is obviously doable, but it's just, like, a little harder to wrap your head around when you don't have role models doing that. So I went into college, was kind of trying to figure out how to find that practical career, because that's kind of, like, the standard thing people tell you as a kid, especially if you want to go into the arts. And I dabbled in a bunch of different stuff, but I ended up coming back to photography and was like, oh, you can do so much with photography, but it's still this really creative expression, and it's still very artistic.

So to me, it felt like this marrying of a trade, but also like an art. And I was like, I think I could go and do something with it. So I switched into photography in college, and then I went to Sierra College in the Sacramento area to community college, and they had a really great photography program and dabbled in all kinds of media or types of photography, but never found the type that clicked.

And my professors are always like, well, what do you want to do? Do you want to be, like, a weding photographer? Food, et cetera? And as you mentioned, it was like, I kind of found that aha. Moment when I went to a Warren Miller film. I was like, wait, there's people who get paid to go do that.

I want to do that. And so I, no joke, went home, and I wasn't a skier at the time. I skied maybe once or twice, and I wanted to get more into skiing, too, so I think that fueled that interest.

But I just went home and googled how to become a ski photographer. And one of the first things in a listicle I found was like, well, you got to be closer to the ski slope. So I dropped out of school and moved out to truckee and just dove in headfirst.

And long story short, I ended up going back to school and finishing my degree and did a bunch of other things, but that was kind of definitely the huge turning point in my life of like, oh, I think that's what I want my north star to be. That's awesome. That's way cool.

Yeah, that's cool. I was going to ask you what you originally started your college in, but you explained that, so that was pretty cool. Thanks.

That's super interesting that your other professors wouldn't know that. There's other things I don't know. That kind of sucks in a way, because it's like these people should teach you that there's all of these different options, not just you have to do weddings or food or.

I don't know. Yeah, I feel like it was not that they didn't encourage that. I think action sports is so niche that I think that it just is.

Like, how often do you meet every day, like, at a full time action sports photographer? That's true. But it was like, once I ended up going back to that program and was very much like, I'm a skier now, and I want to take photos of steen. And they were really supportive.

But I think that's what's really cool about photography. You could literally focus in so many different things, and it just feels endless. No, it does.

I guess that's the thing. I guess they didn't know that you had that passion or whatever, that spark that was waiting to be ignited by the Miller film. And so I guess that makes sense because, like you said, there's so many different aspects of photography that you can make a career out of it if you wanted.

And that's something that I've learned, and I think that's something that I want the listeners to know is if there's something that you're passionate about outside of photography, but want to dabble or make it a career, that would be very doable. How long have you been doing photography and how did you get. Well, yeah, we've answered that well, yeah.

How long have you been doing photography? I think that's a good question from that Warren Miller film I was 19 when I saw that. So I'm 29 now. So I've been taking photos dedicatedly for the last ten years.

And then initially going into it, I was like, I'm going to make this happen. And then breaking into a career is really hard. So I sat back a couple of times, and then I would say, I'm just trying to get all the timeline right.

2018, I believe, is when I got my job with Teton gravity research. And that's kind of when I was like, okay, I think I can actually make this happen and make it happen in the action sports world. So that was six years ago.

So six years ago was very much in the outdoor industry. And then this July 3 years ago will be three years since I went freelance. And now I'm like full time photographer and other things, but full time working for myself, being a business, which that's been a goal for a long time, and something that just felt, like, impossible and it isn't, there are a lot of creatives out there that do it, and that's definitely something.

I'd love to pee again in this podcast. It's just like, it's a lot of work, but you can be a full time artist and make it happen. That's awesome.

I know this isn't the next question, but are there things that you learned at Teton gravity that helped you in the space of the freelance? That's a great question. Yeah. I think that anytime you work in, like, I think it's a really great way for creatives to almost do, like, a trial run of what it's like to be in that field.

Because you have a support network, you usually have a manager or a director, so you have all those tools to lean on, and then you get to just try things without. Obviously, there's still consequences if you mess up with a client. But I think there's ways to gain a skill set without the pressure of needing to provide for yourself.

So the way I think about it is when I worked at Teton gravity, I learned how to interview athletes and how to cold call people and how to pitch ideas and all of it without that overhanging pressure of like, oh, I need to get my rent paid, right? Like, I showed up to work and I knew that I had to work 8 hours. And I think for anyone, if you want to grow that skill set, it's really nice to do it without that pressure weighing on you. And then by the time I left TGR, I was there for three and a half years.

I just felt really confident and every freelancing ebbs and flows, and you do have periods that can feel really hard. And I think to also be learning and go through that hard part would be really tough. So I think being able to gather that skill set without that just, like, weighing over you was really helpful.

Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I never really worked for anybody else. I've always kind of done it myself, so I've never had that, but I could see how that's nice.

And I kind of compare it to an umbrella in a way, like someone else is kind of protecting you from all the extra stuff that comes with operating the business. So all you had to focus on was the creative side of it. Yeah.

Over the years, I'm probably sure this has probably changed, but do you have a favorite lens or look and why? I love that question. When I saw that, I just want to shoot with any lens that has, like, a super shallow depth of field. I love shooting, like, 3.5

and below. So if I could have all the primes that go down to 1.2, I would be super happy.

But that's a lot of really expensive glass. So my main kit of lenses is all 2.8. And then when I dabble with primes, I try to have it be as fast.

But I just really love using depth of field, and I think that it creates a really dreamy, artistic look. And coming from that artist background, that's what I loved about photography. I was like, oh, you can do certain things within the camera to kind of create abstraction and create effects.

And when I learned about Bokeh in college, I was like, that's the coolest thing ever. And sometimes I overdo it, but I just think it's so fun to. And especially when you get it right, when you play that dance of like, okay, I'm going to shoot really shallow.

And if you get the subject, especially in action, like tack sharp, it's a cool feeling. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think it's now.

It's probably five years old now. And this kind of just shows where the technology with lenses and the motors and the focusing motors in them and stuff have gone. Because back in the day, before I even started, or you even started, a lot of cameras had manual focus and you had to manually focus it on your own.

But a lot of the primes now are back. I would say there was a period of time where the primes had such heavy glass in them, and the motors inside those lenses wouldn't move the glass fast enough for action sports. And I think it's been in the last six or seven years that the Motors have gotten better within the focusing motors have gotten better, that they can move the heavier glass so you can shoot action with those primes that you used to not be able to do that.

And I was super fired up when one of the newer 85 millimeter lenses came out, and I'm like, that has the same motor in it that the 70 to 200 has. And that means I can focus on action. I went into that further, but, no, I completely agree with you with the shallow depth of field, and that's a good point, too, because you logistically need it, too for action.

Sometimes, like shooting, mountain biking deep in the woods, it's like I have to be as wide shallow as I can to get some sort of light. That's true. Yeah.

Or dusk or early morning shots and stuff. Yeah. Do you have a favorite project you've worked on or a recent project that you're stoked about? You've worked with a lot of different familiar brands.

For anyone that's familiar with the active lifestyle and outdoor scene, it's really hard picking a favorite. And, yeah, I feel very fortunate to collaborate with a variety of really great brands. I think one trip and shoot that will just always hold a really special place in my heart.

I got to go to India in 2019 as part of a teach on gravity research mountain bike film. And I had traveled internationally before for photography, but that was kind of a next level because it was an expedition, and we went with Hannah Bergman and Veronique Sandler for the film accomplice. And I think it just exemplified how photography can take you to these wild, far fun places.

And it's just so cool what you can do by taking photos and the places you can see. And we were up in northern India, like right near the border of this area called Ladakh. So it's kind of near Tibet and totally blanking on my geography, but it's up in the Himalayas, so it's just like huge crazy mountains and the most amazing culture, and the food was insane.

And just like one of those trips where the company, everyone vibed and was on the same page and, yeah, just tons of pinch me as real kind of moments. And I think also why I love that trip was like my whole job was just to be present and observe and document. And I think I had my camera on me 24/7 because I was like, everything is just so fascinating.

And I love those kind of trips where I'm soaking it in and just constantly looking for something to shoot. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome.

No, that's way cool. You mentioned having your camera out, like, the entire time. Do you always approach your work that way? Or when you're working on a deal or you're doing something, do you try to keep it out as much as possible, or do you wait till you get to a spot and do it? That's a great question.

I see what you're saying. So I really love documentary photography. And what I love about documentary photography is documentary photographers are really good at just finding all these micro moments that you would not capture unless you're just kind of constantly observing the scene and recognizing that there's all these little moments.

I specifically mean to in action. Like, it's not just the action, but it's also when the athletes are resting. And one of the people that I learned that the most farmers, someone who I think you should interview next is Leslie Hitmeyer.

She's an action sports photographer, but she has this insane ability to take photos of people and their moments that you see all the time. But when you capture them just by themselves, it says a lot. And so I'm trying to think of one.

I'm rambling down, but we worked on rebel formation together. Like, we shot near each other, so I got to see her in action, and she's the kind of photographer that will have a prime on our camera and have it out and just keep it out. And that, to me, I saw that when I was younger, and I was like, whoa, that's like a really cool way.

I don't always have a prime on necessarily. But to come back to your question that I think that on certain shoots, it is a really cool way to approach it, because if you're looking for those really quiet, subtle moments, they're usually when they're least expected. And my camera is a mirrorless, and so I can turn the shutter off.

And that helps a lot, too, because then people don't even realize you're taking photos. And that's why this is a tangent. But sometimes when I go on vacation, I don't bring my camera when I'm truly off, because I love that approach of when I'm on a shoot, I'm constantly, always looking for a shot.

So I need to, like, when I'm personally on vacation, I want to be fully detached. It's hard to turn that off. But, yeah, I think bringing that approach of how can you constantly look at a scene and find an interesting shot is, like, a really fun way to approach photography.

No, and I agree. I wasn't going to say. I don't want to say that there's a right or a wrong way, but I photographed some climbers down in indian creek a few years ago, and they mentioned to me, they're like, I think it's really cool that you keep your camera out the whole time.

And I was like, oh, thanks. It was just kind of like, I'm like, well, how could I not have it out? Because I want to capture moments that are really candid and to kind of put it into perspective, he was eating lunch and he didn't have a utensil. He had a crescent wrench for doing something.

And I'm like, okay. Anyway, he's eating like, this Mac and cheese with, like, a crescent wrench, right? And I've got a picture of. And I think it's really awesome.

But you don't get those moments right without having the camera out. You're like, oh, shoot. Because if it's tucked away in the bag and you're like, oh, that'd be cool.

And you go to get the camera out and you mess with the settings or the lens you want, and then they're done with lunch. Yeah. Or they're like, oh, they get all stiff.

Or they're like, you know what I'm saying? You lose that kind of natural. That's awesome, though. I could see that shot.

It says so much about climbing and dirt bag grittiness. I fucking love that. Sorry.

You're good. Yeah, I was like, is that happening? Okay? And I just had to click or whatever, and I was like, nice. And then a climbing partner is sitting there taping up their fingers at the same time.

I'm like, this is cool. Yeah. It kind of leads us into the next question, which is, what's your favorite subject? To get more specific than just active lifestyle or action sports, do you have a favorite subject within that, those niches? I think just the common thread is working with people.

I used to be really into landscape photography when I started, and I still like doing it and it's fun, but I found that I got into astro landscape photography, which is so cool, like doing stuff with stars, but I was like, at a certain point, I just got really lonely and I couldn't find people to go with me. And there's obviously communities that go out and I think that's so rad. But I just fall way more in love with doing the action and the outdoor.

Not even. Sometimes. I don't always do action.

Sometimes it's more of a lifestyle or documentary. But I think it's really fun to work with people, and there's, like, little things that make my day, and one of them is like, you take a photo, and then you go on Instagram and you see the person that you took a photo of, change their profile picture with it, and you're like, oh, cool. I made them feel really good.

Or it's a really satisfying feeling to showcase someone and be like, how can I make them look their best or capture a moment that they didn't expect? And then on top of it, it's just crazy how photography can be this way to break down barriers with people. I have photographed people and then become amazing friends with them right after because I think there's just an intimacy you can get, and it's an excuse to get to know someone, and I just think it's wild. I feel like I found my little hack for the universe or something.

No, that's awesome. Yeah, I think that's super true. And I think every photographer kind of goes through that, at least.

Well, I shouldn't say, like, the lonely part, but kind of. Because when I first started out, like, you, landscapes was the thing, and I wasn't breaking that intimate barrier with people and so much as I should have been. And I had a photographer, I sent a portfolio of work to another photographer.

I said, just give me some criticism on this, please. Just tell me what I can improve on. And he mentioned, get more intimate with the people that your subjects get in their face a little bit with the camera.

And I kind of went back and looked at all the images that I had, and I was like, I am not capturing their personality enough. So it's something that I try to work on more. It can be one of those things.

I feel like that's, like, hard to. Because you got to get yourself out of your own shell, in a way and break that barrier. Sometimes not everyone's receptive to it, too.

That's true. And that's the other side is, like, I would say, building that connection that you have with certain athletes or whoever it is that you're taking pictures with is like, the more time you spend with them, the easier it is to get in their face with the camera without them. Well, Lynn.

Yeah? What are you doing? And that's what's cool. When you've experienced that. There are certain athletes that I've worked with for years now, and now it's like, hey, could you go there and do this? And they're like, oh, yeah, they know.

They trust your vision, but it takes. When I was younger, I used to just get really upset because I'm like, so and so has this shot with this athlete, and then later I realized, oh, well, that person has worked with them on the World cup racing circuit for years, and they trust each other. You can get good photos, but you also do, like you said, need to nurture those relationships, and that takes time.

Yeah. If you could change anything about the photography field or industry, what might that be? I think I would love to see the general public and even brands place a higher value on photography. Yeah, I think that I feel like it's like trying to distill it and not be like, we're shooting digitally largely, and we have things like Instagram and other social media, and there's just, like a plethora of content.

There seems to be kind of, like, this general consensus that photography is just this quick and easy thing, and sometimes it is, and a lot of times for us professionals, it's not. And so I feel like it would just be really awesome to see. It's like, have the conversations around licensing be taken more seriously when a brand comes to you and not even just on Instagram, like, using your photos on Instagram, but also just to like, hey, can we use this in an ad? Not be startled when you're like, okay, well, I want to be paid for that.

And I don't know if it's just the outdoor industry. I primarily work within that industry. And I've been told it's different in other industries, but it always kind of surprises me that there's that pushback in the metaphor or analogy I love to use is like, you wouldn't go to a baker, ask to take a dozen cookies for free.

They would just laugh at you. Right? I'll give you exposure. That's like something they worked on.

I'll give you exposure. Yeah. I'll use it to promote my event, and then your cookies will.

I'll share the cookies with people. Right. I don't know.

I feel like when you frame it in those contexts, it feels, like, really silly. But I think that. I don't know if it's because there's so much photography out there, which is, I think is great, and I love that it's way more accessible.

But you and I are the ones who are waking up at 04:00 a.m. And hanging up on the wall, waiting in the cold, and getting that frame. That's why there's a value to that.

And just because it's a digital thing and it's not tangible, doesn't mean that anyone can take it. That's just something I've noticed more as I've become solidly a business owner. It's like, no, this is my business.

This is how I sustain myself. Yeah, no, and you're not the first to say it, and I don't think you'll be the last to say it. And I can probably share this, I guess.

I had a client that I did a little short video for. I don't know that I did a video for them, but it was like I was shooting spec, meaning speculative. Like, hopefully I make some money off this, but whatever, I'm having a good time.

And I shared the video with them and they're like, oh, yeah, we're not going to use that. We're not in the right. Whatever season for it.

I'm like, okay, cool. I think a year and a half went by and I got an email from a marketing ad agency, I don't know, out of New York that was like, hey, can we get the original files for this? I was like, yeah, if I can get paid for it. And it went from that to then talking back to the brand again about whether or not they wanted to license that footage.

And they were like, well, we just don't want to pay it. And they came up with a bunch of excuses, and I was like, cool, thanks for wasting my time. But I was like, wow, you guys were going to try and go forward with using my footage, and then when it came down to actually have to pay for it, they didn't want to.

I was like, you guys suck. I will never send you anything again. Not really.

I don't know. But, yeah, it's not cool. Yeah, especially when they want to go forward and use it.

It's like, well, if you want to use it, there's clearly a value there that you see, right? Yeah. And it's something that I've kind of given a little bit of thought to, I think, since I'm not the only one that's dealt with it and a lot of guests have mentioned it, but I feel like. And this kind of stems into where I developed a passion or a little bit of a desire to try and learn photography.

My dad's friend would photograph motorcycle races out in Portland, and he was shooting on film, and he would go home and develop it throughout the week, and then he would come back the next weekend and show these prints and go, do you want to buy this? And he'd sold stuff in magazines and sold stuff to the athletes or the writers and the teams. But back then, I think the move from film to digital has kind of made it feel more tangible or more less value. Because it's like, well, you can shoot 1000 or 2000 images on that thing and doesn't cost you a thing and you're like, well, yeah, but the value is still there because just because I don't have that cost of film anymore doesn't mean I don't have the cost of editing software.

I don't know, I don't think people see it the same anymore because it's not a tangible, pick it up off a shelf type of upfront cost photographers and then there's people. I think that maybe I'm rambling too much about it, but for someone that's starting out or new to photography, they don't have that initial upfront cost of $7 for 24 exposures or whatever. So I don't know what the cost was or is.

But yeah, anyway, yeah, those are my thoughts. That's a rabbit hole. It's a great rabbit hole.

No, stop. But no. And I guess maybe I've elaborated more on it today because it's something that keeps getting mentioned and I know that there's probably some brands out there that will listen to this and then there's some new photographers that need to hear it.

And yeah, don't give it away for Goretex, but maybe you need a Gore Tex jacket, but if you don't need, don't. Anyway, there's times it makes sense, but don't be afraid to stand your ground. Also, that's a great ending sentiment of like, if a brand seems shocked that you're asking for money and they gaslight you, that's not cool because brands do.

You're allowed to say that this is valuable and I deserve to be paid. Even if it's a brand that's small and is like, hey, we can only do x amount and I'm not going to throw numbers, but if it's not standard, I don't know. Even if a brand tries, I think that's better than someone just saying like, no, I want to use this for free.

No, it's true. Don't be afraid to draw a line and stand by it. Let's move on.

Yeah. Goals for photography and life, that's a big one. Yeah, I think goals for photography is.

In the last year, I've kind of shifted into a new chapter with my career where I've been doing just branded collaborations for campaigns and they're really fun. They're also high stakes because you're working with a brand and the budgets get bigger and so you really need to deliver a higher product. But I love the challenge and I love to use storytelling, drive the creative behind my brand.

So using a project to talk about issues that actually matter and that stuff just really gets me fired up. So I'd love to just keep, like, I was able to work with pivot cycles last year and Juliana bicycles and I would love just to keep working with different kinds of brands and try to think of ways know turn like a catalog. Like Patagonia would be a dream brand if I could shoot like a campaign just because they're so outspoken and use their platform to kind of tackle bigger issues.

And then I'd also love to shoot for Nat Geo. That's still definitely a bucket list thing like most photographers. Yeah, that's cool.

That's awesome tips or advice that you have for anyone beginning in photography or wanting to start a photography career. I feel like what could be a cool one to segue from our earlier conversation is really, if you're wanting to grow as a photographer, truly spend like a year with your camera on your hip, throw a prime on it and make it accessible, and just take a lot of photos. When I was really shifting and pursuing photography seriously, I had this summer when I was living in like one, my, I think it was my first, no, it was my second summer living in Jackson, Wyoming.

And I decided just to bring my camera with me everywhere. And I got such cool photos. And at the time I was like, oh, I'm getting these photos because I live in this amazing place and it's gorgeous.

And that was part of it looking back. But I think it was actually because I had my camera on me and I was always curious and always looking for shots. And I think a testament to that is I ended up getting my first ever cover shot that summer.

And it was from such a random moment. I was at a rodeo and walking to go grab something from the concession stand and I happened to see the cowboys exiting the main arena, and there was like this crazy rays of golden hour sunlight coming through the trees and the cowboys were like kicking up dust and it was just like this crazy light going on with the dust and they were like silhouetted by it. And so I had my camera there and I took a photo and so it wasn't, know, the grand Tetons at sunset.

It was just this super unexpected moment. And I was there and I had my camera and then ended up sending photos to a local magazine in Teton Valley, which is on the other side of Jackson and they saw that one, they're like, oh, we want to use that one. So I think that I experienced a lot of growth that year because I was just constantly putting myself out there and constantly trying different things.

And that's the thing too. If you're just shooting for fun with yourself, you can experiment. You can see how certain effects work.

Yeah. Just be curious. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. I love all of. Well, thanks.

Thanks Katie for being here. Where can people find your work? Yeah, I think to get the latest updates on my work, Instagram is probably the best option. So I'm at underscore Katie L o.

It's just one word and then my website is katielazanthich.com. Yeah, those are like the main sources. And then my work is just all over the place with different brands and publications and stuff, but that's about it.

Awesome. Well, thanks Katie. Thanks for being here and I'll include those links in the show notes.

Awesome. Thank you so much. This was an awesome conversation.

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